[SOLVED]Fibaro wall plug burn 5pcs

[MDC 77]

Hello,

Yesterday come back from a business trip, and on the road i try to turn on AC, open some devices in my home but they was unavailable on Fibaro iOS app.

When enter in home i feel a burn smell. I check all devices and found 5 of them are burn.

Just for curios i unscrew one of them and take a look what's inside. They just burn. 

 

No extra load, no lighting was a sunny day, all other devices from home are working, all other fibaro realy, dimmers, binary sensor are ok, only this 5 pcs fault.

Some was on first floor, other on second floor, and other in basement.

Each floor has separate Lines, i have 3 Line and i put each floor on separate line.

 

What to do? I don't keept paper for all, only for last 3 pcs that i've buy last week.

Any ideea what cause that?

 

 

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Edited July 24, 2017 by Mediacut

[MDC 77]

25 minutes ago, tinman said:

 

the Sweden (and only due to extra req. in Sweden) affected part was early FGWPF-101, after that they got improved (FGWPF-101 got some extra clearance protection). What you have is FGWPF-102, which is approved in Sweden, and exactly that part what Sweden requested got f* up in your house. So no, you didn't got any relocated product.

 

 

do you really think that any serious manufacturer would send broken products and risk bad press? 

 

 

call your electrician and let check your installation

 

 

no issue on that, the part what have to protect your house and children did exactly what it have to do! It have to burn out, to protect bigger and dangerous damage.

 

 

sure, always good idea

 

Take a look, i open other burn devices and how i say they are different even on case is write FGWPF-102.

Some was burn, other stop working, "same" devices...

 

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25 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

 

@tinman it's difficult see on that photo what failed first because of all that soot and because - just like you - I have no crystal ball. I am going to make a very educated guess. It looks like a fusible resistor was destroyed, indicating that the PCB suffered a massive short circuit. As you say, the component most likely to cause that in my opinion is the red disc, also known as MOV (metal oxide varistor. They come in different colours, often blue). Unless struck by lightning, which may destroy the MOV destructively, the failure mode of that device is is a dead short. MOV handles spikes (see MOV datasheet) to protect electronic devices from going into avalanche mode, which is usually means "the end" of the electronic component. But depending on the energy in a spike and the number of spikes, the device becomes more and more leaky. If it reaches a certain point, the device heats up and unfortunately it has a negative temperature coefficient. This means it will leak even more and heat up even more. When it is hot enough, the internal structure disappears and it forms a dead short.

 

@Mediacut Would it be possible to measure the resistance of the red disc? If it is indeed in the ohms range, then the MOV failed due to over-voltage or stress. I know, you keep saying that you are protected agains that but the MOV may have had to handle surges before, or you still have surges. I agree, you have other devices that contain similar MOVs and they did not fail at the same time. The definition of a surge is this: "A voltage at least twice the normal system voltage with a duration less than a few milliseconds". You need special measurement equipment to detect this... You can't use a voltmeter, nor can you use an oscilloscope, so I think that rules out everything available to the electronics enthusiast. 

 

I am not defending the manufacturer here, and I am not claiming to be an authority on surge protection. But I do know the basics and I still browse through "Protection Of Electronic Circuits From Overvoltages" by Ronald B. Standler. It's from 1989 but apart from better measurement technologies, everything is still valid (it mentions MOV, TVS, ferro resonant transformers, ...)

 

EDIT: I do not claim that I know what happened, I do not dismiss any alternative theory. Someone has to test that hypothesis, by examining the dead modules!

 

EDIT2: it must be a frightful experience. Although I'm an electronics guy, and I have melted some plastic over the years * cough *, I do not like the smell...

Hello,

Thank for write us. I'm not an electrician, i'm a end user. 

We are here to share our ideas, our problem. In my case this is the problem,  and i will send back to warranty and they probably will change this devices.

The purpose of this topic was to find if this an isolate case or is general. After reading seems some users have same issues in Sweden, so is not an isolate case.  

 

Looks like is a case of FGWPF-102 and inside is 2 models, some burn some not...

Anyway needs check from fibaro, not from us.

[petergebruers 1,261]

11 minutes ago, Mediacut said:

 

Take a look, i open other burn devices and how i say they are different even on case is write FGWPF-102.

Some was burn, other stop working, "same" devices...

 

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They do not look that different to me. You may think I need glasses (and good ones too...)

 

Looks more like different revisions. I'm guessing the left one is older (look at the revision number). The coil L1 on the left is an "open" type. The one on the right is a closed type. The closed type causes less radiated interference. And you can apply that reasoning to many off the components. Without detailed schematics and bill of materials, it is impossible to tell if they "identical in behaviour and quality". But I would not say, it is fundamentally different. It looks to me... the right one is more recent and had some optimisations. But that is an educated guess.

 

I guess I have not understood what you have tried to tell by posting those pictures. Probably because I am not looking at what happen in the same way as you do. Would you care to tell a bit more? For instance, do you think one of those revisions is not genuine? Or do you think they manufactured 2 versions and decided to sell you an inferior part? Are you worried that you have other modules that may fail in the same way? Is it always the left model that burns? Or the right one?

 

I keep asking this, because I am worried you still have an electrical problem, that might destroy other stuff over time!

 

13 minutes ago, Mediacut said:

Hello,

Thank for write us. I'm not an electrician, i'm a end user. 

We are here to share our ideas, our problem. In my case this is the problem,  and i will send back to warranty and they probably will change this devices.

The purpose of this topic was to find if this an isolate case or is general. After reading seems some users have same issues in Sweden, so is not an isolate case.  

 

Looks like is a case of FGWPF-102 and inside is 2 models, some burn some not...

Anyway needs check from fibaro, not from us.

 

You're welcome.

 

I'm an enduser too, and the equivalent of an electrician. I try to explain things on this forum so it can be understood by a wide audience. Knowledge is power. I hope you do not feel insulted, I see no reason why an end-user should not voice his opinion and try to make sense of what he observes.

 

I'd send a mail to [email protected] and explain + link to this topic. They are nice guys. Let us know what happens.

 

I'm on this forum since... I don't remember, 2012 I guess. Do you accept the theory that more people come here to complain, than people come here  to say: "I am so happy"? In that case I would expect a lot of similar posts like yours. I don't see many mentions of "burnt devices" (relative to the numbers sold). I may have missed something, but I think the "Swedish matter" was several years ago and devices were redesigned to meet newer standards. Tell me if I am wrong.

 

[MDC 77]

6 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

 

They do not look that different to me. You may think I need glasses (and good ones too...)

 

Looks more like different revisions. I'm guessing the left one is older (look at the revision number). The coil L1 on the left is an "open" type. The one on the right is a closed type. The closed type causes less radiated interference. And you can apply that reasoning to many off the components. Without detailed schematics and bill of materials, it is impossible to tell if they "identical in behaviour and quality". But I would not say, it is fundamentally different. It looks to me... the right one is more recent and had some optimisations. But that is an educated guess.

 

I guess I have not understood what you have tried to tell by posting those pictures. Probably because I am not looking at what happen in the same way as you do. Would you care to tell a bit more? For instance, do you think one of those revisions is not genuine? Or do you think they manufactured 2 versions and decided to sell you an inferior part? Are you worried that you have other modules that may fail in the same way? Is it always the left model that burns? Or the right one?

 

I keep asking this, because I am worried you still have an electrical problem, that might destroy other stuff over time!

 

 

You're welcome.

 

I'm an enduser too, and the equivalent of an electrician. I try to explain things on this forum so it can be understood by a wide audience. Knowledge is power. I hope you do not feel insulted, I see no reason why an end-user should not voice his opinion and try to make sense of what he observes.

 

I'd send a mail to [email protected] and explain + link to this topic. They are nice guys. Let us know what happens.

 

I'm on this forum since... I don't remember, 2012 I guess. Do you accept the theory that more people come here to complain, than people come here  to say: "I am so happy"? In that case I would expect a lot of similar posts like yours. I don't see many mentions of "burnt devices" (relative to the numbers sold). I may have missed something, but I think the "Swedish matter" was several years ago and devices were redesigned to meet newer standards. Tell me if I am wrong.

 

 

Hello again,

I plan to implement FIBARO system in a public building that will have several rooms where quest will be, I plan to control entire building, around 70 pcs relay modules. 

Until building is done I give a try to Fibaro on my home, I start whit a device from each....as a test purpose, and step by step I add sensors, wall switches...now my home is 100% Fibaro controlled, I replace walls witches whit iPads....and so on. Is a great system.

 

Until now, I had problems only whit a Fibaro double relay that not work, the device couldn’t add to zwave, I send back and receive other.

 

My biggest afraid is if this devices start burning from nothing, some users say my home has elecical issues, but is not true, all seems to work perfectly. After this episode all my devices work normally. 

 

I buy until now 35 Fibaro relays modules for new building, and I start asking, will be safe, what happened if they start burning, how to control building?

This is reason of this topic.

[petergebruers 1,261]

3 minutes ago, Mediacut said:

I buy until now 35 Fibaro relays modules for new building, and I start asking, will be safe, what happened if they start burning, how to control building?

This is reason of this topic.

 

Valid question. I guess you'll have to wait until someone can get you some statistics. BTW to be sure: your modules did not burn (with an open flame), and they did not cause something else to burn, did they? It is allowed to have a failed component in a device, but it should stay in the device.

 

I happen to know a class of capacitors that is used to suppres interference (called Safety Rated X capacitor). This component is designed to be connected 100% of the time to live and neutral, so it has to withstand surges and fail without burning down the house. They DO fail and I've witnessed two failures. They go in a flash and burn polymer releasing a big puff of soot. It is worse than starting a 50 year old diesel engine

 

I couldn't find a movie of a failed X capacitor, but this is a nice one that demonstrates a failure that should be contained. It shows electrolytic capacitors, with solid and liquid electrolyte, used out of spec. What you see is a "rupture valve" (actually just a weak spot intentionally made in the can of the capacitor).

 

 

 

To be clear, the electrolytic capacitors on your modules seem to be intact (they are not puffed). So I'm pretty certain that is not the failure mode of your device.

[MDC 77]

2 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

 

Valid question. I guess you'll have to wait until someone can get you some statistics. BTW to be sure: your modules did not burn (with an open flame), and they did not cause something else to burn, did they? It is allowed to have a failed component in a device, but it should stay in the device.

 

I happen to know a class of capacitors that is used to suppres interference (called Safety Rated X capacitor). This component is designed to be connected 100% of the time to live and neutral, so it has to withstand surges and fail without burning down the house. They DO fail and I've witnessed two failures. They go in a flash and burn polymer releasing a big puff of soot. It is worse than starting a 50 year old diesel engine

 

I couldn't find a movie of a failed X capacitor, but this is a nice one that demonstrates a failure that should be contained. It shows electrolytic capacitors, with solid and liquid electrolyte, used out of spec. What you see is a "rupture valve" (actually just a weak spot intentionally made in the can of the capacitor).

 

 

 

To be clear, the electrolytic capacitors on your modules seem to be intact (they are not puffed). So I'm pretty certain that is not the failure mode of your device.

 

 

Indeed the device not burn whit flame, they burn inside, make smoke and stop working.

[petergebruers 1,261]

10 minutes ago, Mediacut said:

 

 

Indeed the device not burn whit flame, they burn inside, make smoke and stop working.

 

`Thanks. It does not make it less scary, I know, but it should give *some* reassurance...

 

BTW a friend of mine works for Philips (actually Nexperia). A colleague of him is "the Pyromaniac". His job is to test the failure mode of prototypes. Oversimplified (because he has to follow a strict protocol) his job is this. He is allowed to short-circuit any 2 pins. That should not start a fire, the damage should be contained and the temperature must no go above a certain limit. I'm not sure if Fibaro does it that way. I'm telling this because contrary to what you may think (some) companies really do a good job and make sure the design is safe. Oh, they also have a "mister ESD" - he shoots 20 000 Volt pulses at any part of the device (outside, buttons, ports). Designers hate him.

Edited July 25, 2017 by petergebruers

[T.Konopka 8]

Hello,

 

@Mediacut, can you share your case number with the Support?

[MDC 77]

5 hours ago, T.Konopka said:

Hello,

 

@Mediacut, can you share your case number with the Support?

Hello,

I will write to support tonight.

 

in meantime I call an electrician and he check my house electric system, as I suppose al is ok.

he not find any issues whit my house. I show him my wall plug that burn and he said inside that piece that explode it my be cause of overcurrent o missing of negative, but like me he cannot explain why only 3 of this device burn and other 2 not, and why other electric from house was not affected.

[Bodyart 229]

Guys, reading all this topic i'm becomming convinced that there must have been a strong spike (probably even earlier as @petergebruers mentioned earlier), before placing the power stabilizer. I've seen damages caused by lightning on most bizarre places, where you woul'd never expected it.

[jimicr 89]

35 minutes ago, Mediacut said:

Hello,

I will write to support tonight.

 

in meantime I call an electrician and he check my house electric system, as I suppose al is ok.

he not find any issues whit my house. I show him my wall plug that burn and he said inside that piece that explode it my be cause of overcurrent o missing of negative, but like me he cannot explain why only 3 of this device burn and other 2 not, and why other electric from house was not affected.

Taking a long shot here, did the electrician check the contacts from your wall outlet if they where "loose".

The contacts are kind of springs that squeeze any plug you insert assuring they make good contact and don't have a "transmission resistance" (sorry can't find the English word for it hope you get what i meen).

Long story short: if the springs are loose and any current passes it will create heat, sparks and drops in voltage that could damage the circuits.

This happens mostly on general outlets, used for (or used to be used) e.g. vacuum cleaners. outlets where a plug is inserted and removed from often. I have seen this a lot of times on outlets that had electric heaters connected for a long time. The current passing thru there for years weakened the grip of those contacts.

 

Jim 

 

p.s. if you have a floating neutral, weird things happen as well, but this would probably have caused much more damage thru out the house

Edited July 25, 2017 by jimicr

[T.Konopka 8]

Hello,

 

@Mediacut, our engineer has been assigned to your case.

I believe that it will not be possible to determine what caused the damage without examining the devices, so please do not dispose them.

 

[MDC 77]

On 7/26/2017 at 11:11 AM, T.Konopka said:

Hello,

 

@Mediacut, our engineer has been assigned to your case.

I believe that it will not be possible to determine what caused the damage without examining the devices, so please do not dispose them.

 

 

Hello,

I sent decives to factory, and seems power supply of modules was problem, factory replace modules whit new one and the was so nice and send back new generation module, Z-wave Plus and some candy

Thank for fast support !

[jimicr 89]

3 minutes ago, Mediacut said:

 

Hello,

I sent decives to factory, and seems power supply of modules was problem, factory replace modules whit new one and the was so nice and send back new generation module, Z-wave Plus and some candy

Thank for fast support !

 

Very good you got this sorted and thanks for the update!

[LeeSteventon 5]

Hi @MDC,

 

I'm curious to know if this was finally resolved and is now working OK?

 

I too am looking into making sure this does not happen in my home and have been investigating the correct usage recommended by Fibaro for their products. In particular for the wall plugs (FGWP-101 and FGWP-102), the manual states in Section 10 (Specifications) the following:

 

Quote

Rated load current (for resistive load):  11A - continuous load

Power output (for resistive load):  2.5kW at continuous load

 

Alongside those ratings is an important note which states:

 

Quote

In case of loads other than resistive please observe cosφ and, if necessary, use load lower than rated. It is recommended not to exceed 3A for 250 V AC, cosφ=0.4.

 

I noticed in one of your original posts that you stated the following:

 

On 7/25/2017 at 9:16 AM, MDC said:

For example my server has 180w, AC 900w, dishwasher 1300w, dryer 1500w, fridge 130w,

this was devices that has Fibaro module burn.

Other device like electric heaters that has 2000w has no problem, he was connected to same home

 

Looking at the list of your devices, it looks like generally the ones that burned out are what are called "inductive" loads. This usually means that they have motors in them of one kind or another.

The one that didn't burn out (electric heater) is a resistive load and is therefore pulling power from your home in a different way.

 

 

If this is true and my deductions are correct, I think Fibaro needs to make this very clear and state it much more clearly on its products. These are intended for home users who, most of the time, are oblivious to the nature of how the devices they want to control pull power from home electric supplies.

 

Any comment Fibaro?