Fibaro single switch on daikin Inverter air condition

[Bodyart 231]

@10der,

 

here you go

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[tinman 1,070]

you can use qubino smart meter and cheap rail relay, you will be able to switch and measure 

[Jamie mccrostie 82]

What about aotec  heavy duty relay its specs say it will switch 5hp motor derated to AC3 and has power metering?

[akatar 208]

as far i can see it switches 40 amp

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so give it a try

[petergebruers 1,268]

4 minutes ago, Jamie mccrostie said:

What about aotec  heavy duty relay its specs say it will switch 5hp motor derated to AC3 and has power metering?

 

1 minute ago, akatar said:

as far i can see it switches 40 amp

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so give it a try

 

Yes I have mentioned that one already but I did not have have the specs at that time. It is also twice the price of a Fib Plug...

 

I'd also like to point out that I Aeon no longer lists it on its website,:

 

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But If you google their site:

 

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I am not sure but it looks as if they are planning a replacement (for quite some time...)

 

I quote:

 

"Heavy Duty Smart Switch.

Coming soon from Aeotec by Aeon Labs.

Control, automate and record the electricity consumption of a premise’s heavy-duty appliances. Works in and outdoors with appliances up to 30 amps."

 

So It looks like a different product, 30 A instead of 40, no spec for inductive loads, indoor & outdoor instead of only indoor...

[Jamie mccrostie 82]

3 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

 

 

Yes I have mentioned that one already but I did not have have the specs at that time. It is also twice the price of a Fib Plug...

 

I'd also like to point out that I Aeon no longer lists it on its website,:

 

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But If you google their site:

 

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I am not sure but it looks as if they are planning a replacement (for quite some time...)

 

I quote:

 

"Heavy Duty Smart Switch.

Coming soon from Aeotec by Aeon Labs.

Control, automate and record the electricity consumption of a premise’s heavy-duty appliances. Works in and outdoors with appliances up to 30 amps."

 

So It looks like a different product, 30 A instead of 40, no spec for inductive loads, indoor & outdoor instead of only indoor...

You would think there would be room in the market for a Fibaro  AC 3 rated device. With power metering

So many vairable non resistive loads these days.

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Jamie mccrostie

[petergebruers 1,268]

On 10/19/2017 at 8:22 PM, Jamie mccrostie said:

You would think there would be room in the market for a Fibaro  AC 3 rated device. With power metering

 

 

For those not following...

 

AC-1 - This category applies to all AC loads where the power factor is more than 0.95. These are primarily non-inductive or slightly inductive loads, such as heating. Breaking the arc remains easy with minimal arcing and contact wear.

AC-3 - This category applies to squirrel cage motors with breaking during normal running of the motor.
On closing, the contactor makes the inrush current, which is about 5 to 7 times the rated full load current of the motor.
On opening, the contactor breaks the rated full load current of the motor.

 

 

Motors are considered a "nasty load". I checked one of my Finder 16 A relays (type 46.52) and it can do 4000 VA AC-1 (incandescent) load, 100.000 contact life, but only 750 VA AC-15 load (inductive load) and it has no spec for AC-3 (induction motors). But it mentions: "Single phase motor rating: 550 W". Notice more than 8 X reduction in specification... But if you stay in spec, it has a guaranteed life of 100.000 cycles.

 

If your datasheet mentions AC-3, you are looking at a "big relay"...

 

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Edited October 22, 2017 by petergebruers
Fix mixup of 10 A and 16 A finder relay specs.

[Jamie mccrostie 82]

7 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

 

 

For those not following...

 

AC-1 - This category applies to all AC loads where the power factor is more than 0.95. These are primarily non-inductive or slightly inductive loads, such as heating. Breaking the arc remains easy with minimal arcing and contact wear.

AC-3 - This category applies to squirrel cage motors with breaking during normal running of the motor.
On closing, the contactor makes the inrush current, which is about 5 to 7 times the rated full load current of the motor.
On opening, the contactor breaks the rated full load current of the motor.

 

 

Motors are considered a "nasty load". I checked one of my Finder 16 A relays and it can do 4000 VA AC-1 (incandescent)load but only 500 VA AC-15 load (inductive load) and it has no spec for AC-3 (induction motors). But it mentions: "Single phase motor rating: 370 W". Notice more than 10 X reduction in specification...

 

If your datasheet mentions AC-3, you are looking at a "big relay"...

 

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AC2 would cover most domestic situations single phase pumps etc

 

[Tundel 9]

You can also use this relay

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, and for switching On/Off add to this additional relay 

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 or 

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[petergebruers 1,268]

@Tundel thanks for sharing your experience. Nice relays. In some countries a big relay is called "contactor"  (Tha ABB is listed as such) but I've never seen an actual clear definition. If it's for 3-phase motors, or industrial lighting, its often called a "contactor".

 

@Jibran I have been thinking... If you connect 3 x 200 W DC supplies (with no inrush current protection) to a relay, and you turn it on at the top of the mains sine wave... It might trip your circuit breaker! Have you ever tried to connect these supplies together? Then, let them cool, plug them in. You get a nice spark? Does your breaker trip if you repeat this 10 times?

 

Lets to some "back of the envelope calculations". If you have low reactance mains, and these supplies do not have much inrush current protection, 60 A inrush is plausible. Times three is 180 A

 

Look at the tripping curves of a typical European C breaker:

 

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It is guaranteed to trip at 10 x In but it must not trip at 5 x In. So a C16 might trip at 80 A and certainly will at 160 A. To be tested...

 

To avoid this, an SSR could be used, particularly a model that turns on at zero-crossing. That would minimize the inrush current of a capacitive load. But unfortunately, an SSR can have a small leakage current (depends on wether they have a snubber inside or not + some small leakage through the components). That is an issue similar to the blinking/glowing of LEDS  on Dimmer 1 and 2. That leakage might be enough to make your supplies pulse when actually "off". To Be Tested. Edit: a breaker has some mechanical inertia, so it not only depends on the peak current, but also the duration of the peak. It is hard to predict, and hard to measure for a hobbyist...

 

I have such an experimental setup, I thought it would be fun to share it and compare some sizes of relays.

 

From small to big:

• Micro-gap relay from the FGS-212 (oldest relay). It can switch a 8 A resistive load, which is impressive. But the tiny coil and spring do not offer much to break the contact. The tiny gap has issues with inductive loads. It is a good relay if you can keep inrush current low.
• The bigger white one is similar in size and specification as the one used in the Fibaro Wall Plug. It is about 3x the volume of the previous one. Nominal current: 16 A but the Wall Plug measures current (and power and temperature) and limits it to 13 A.
• The green one is the kind of relay I'd use at home for difficult loads and to interface a 230 V circuit (any Z-Wave switch which runs on mails) to 12 or 24 V circuits. For sprinklers, your garage door, gate opener, ... It is a Finder (that's German, it is pronounced "veendeh") 16 A single pole, double throw. It has massive separation between the coil and the contacts. It is called a "coupler relay". Look at the size of the contacts and the overall construction. It as available with a DIN mount (socket).
• The fourth one is a bit special, it is not designed for frequent triggering. It is a 60 A "load shedding" relay used in smart meters. It is also a latching relay: setting the coil to +12 and -12 closes it while -12 and +12 closes it. It has massive pulling force and big contacts. Big Chinese brand names (also selling UL and VDE registered stuff) are Hongfa (HF), Songle, Chonyo...
• On the left: a Chinese TRIAC based SSR. They come in 230 V trigger input so you can connect them to a Fibaro Relay. Mine is 3- 30 V DC so I removed the relay from and old FGS-212 and connected the SSR. Notice the massive cooler? This is an experimental setup to control my deep fryer rated at 3500 W so about 15 A. I can't use a Fibaro Wall Plug with that load... Obviously, this is a test setup, it is not allowed to modify this kind of equipment in Belgium. But You could buy an 230 V input SSR and put it in a DIN mount box with your Fibaro relay. That would be OK.

 

 

 

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Edited October 20, 2017 by petergebruers

[robmac 173]

I have a few of the Z-Wave Plus Aeotec Heavy Duty Switches. Very solid and I think still available. 

 

If you look on vesternet site (but I am not sure where they took this from?) 

 

• Waterproof: IP44
• Power Consumption: 1W
• Ratings: 240VAC, 50/60Hz (2Phases L1,L2) ; Max 9600 Watts 40A Resistor; 240VAC 5HP AC Motor
• RF range: 500ft/150m outdoor
• Endurance of 10ms period peak current of 1440A
• Environmental Conditions: Indoor use
• Ambient temperature: 5°C to 40°C
• Max. relative humidity: 80%
• Dimensions (LxWxH): 130 x 120 x 40 mm

 

[petergebruers 1,268]

@robmac thank you for sharing the specs. They are indeed in the manual of the "Model number: ZW078-B/C". Well, mine says 200 m outdoor range, that is probably optimistic. I would like to point out that day do not mention a contact life, or mechanical life. I am not saying they try to hide something, after all this is a really big device, it might contain a relay similar to the load shedding relay (see picture on my previous post). Do you see a model number on the relay? I'd love to see the datasheet...

 

[robmac 173]

9 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

@robmac thank you for sharing the specs. They are indeed in the manual of the "Model number: ZW078-B/C". Well, mine says 200 m outdoor range, that is probably optimistic. I would like to point out that day do not mention a contact life, or mechanical life. I am not saying they try to hide something, after all this is a really big device, it might contain a relay similar to the load shedding relay (see picture on my previous post). Do you see a model number on the relay? I'd love to see the datasheet...

 

I have not opened one up. Will have a look at one that I have in my office and see if it is easy to open.

 

I was considering fitting a daikin inverter and I am sure I read that they have low/no inrush but can not find the info now I search again. Is that possible?

 

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by robmac

[Jamie mccrostie 82]

6 hours ago, robmac said:

I have not opened one up. Will have a look at one that I have in my office and see if it is easy to open.

 

I was considering fitting a daikin inverter and I am sure I read that they have low/no inrush but can not find the info now I search again. Is that possible?

 

 

If its a inverter its motor would be on a vsd im guessing and wind up and down slowly so yes small inrush current 

[petergebruers 1,268]

I am not an expert on Airco...  I agree with @Jamie mccrostie modern equipment from a reputable company should have measures against inrush current. My Panasonic inverter based microwave does not cause flicker in my kitchen, while my old (and trusty) Sharp caused flicker when it's big iron core transformer turned on. The relay inside was still fine after 15 years, it is about the size of the finder relay... I haven't tried it on a Z-Wave relay though, it is not a resistive load and it is rated 16 A so exceeds that capacity of a Fibaro Wall Plug.

 

But generally speaking... Doesn't modern equipment want a permanent power supply? I mean: it's running complex software, probably needs some sort of clock, it manages all kinds of power supply lines internally. If you only want to measure power that's OK. But cutting power to a device containing a motor, a compressor or a pump... I do not know.

 

Isn't there some kind if on/off interface using low power contacts? Or IR? Or as Bodyart said, some sort of http:

 

On 10/19/2017 at 7:23 PM, Bodyart said:

Aren't all Daikin products expandable with Wi-Fi module?

This will ease the integration i.m.h.o.

 

[jakub.jezek 370]

Hello guys,

 

Just reaction for @Bodyart comment.

On 19. 10. 2017 at 7:23 PM, Bodyart said:

Aren't all Daikin products expandable with Wi-Fi module?

This will ease the integration i.m.h.o.

 

 

Intesisbox has modul for Daikin, which is WiFi.

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Also intesisbox has REST API (json), that make easy integration:

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[petergebruers 1,268]

Big Clive recently posted a teardown of a contactor. He mentions inrush current, inductive and capacitive load.

 

 

[Tundel 9]

If you familiar about arc suppression, then you can use RC snubber in contacts, which helps against contacts burning.

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[petergebruers 1,268]

@Tundel thank you for those links. Arc suppression certainly helps, but it only solves half of the problem. When contacts open, inductive loads prolong the life of the arc and this causes wear of the contacts. Snubbers aka RC damping aka ark suppressors reduce arcing by taking over the current from the contact when it opens. Snubbers do not help with inrush current. So it does not help with power supplies, led lamps, that do not contain inrush current limiters. The poor man's solution to inrush current is the NTC. Both snubbers and NTCs require some matching to the load, random values won't help and can cause issues. The Littelfuse document(s) do not present calculations but it does mention this. Please also note that adding an RC across the contacts introduces a conductive path. This may cause glowing or blinking of LEDs and pulsing of AC-DC supplies... In that case, I would connect the snubber across the load (it is mentioned on the first web page).  Because motors exhibit both inrush current and inductive leakage, big relays are still needed...

[robmac 173]

On 10/22/2017 at 10:04 PM, petergebruers said:

@robmac thank you for sharing the specs. They are indeed in the manual of the "Model number: ZW078-B/C". Well, mine says 200 m outdoor range, that is probably optimistic. I would like to point out that day do not mention a contact life, or mechanical life. I am not saying they try to hide something, after all this is a really big device, it might contain a relay similar to the load shedding relay (see picture on my previous post). Do you see a model number on the relay? I'd love to see the datasheet...

 

Hi,

 

finally installed that heavy duty switch so opened the cover and took a few pictures for those that were interested in switching heavy domestic loads.

 

 

.

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The internal temperature sensor that can be seen wrapped around the inner and outer shell does not function by default on HC2. I have not made any effort to trouble shoot but if this was used for heavy switching it would do no harm to make sure this was reporting and warning of any overheat.

 

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 for the spec of that relay.

 

 

 

regards,

 

Robert

 

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