Fibaro HC3 - Is It Worthwhile?

[PepsiMac 17]

Anyone got any detail on release date and features for the HC3?

 

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So far ....

 

• Processor: Quad-core Arm Cortex A53 (1.2 GHz)
• RAM: 2 GB
• HDD: 8 GB
• Power supply: 12V DC
• Dimensions: 220x140x35 mm 
• Z-Wave (500): 868.0-868.6 MHz 869.7-870.0 MHz
• 433MHz (OOK, FSK, GFSK): 433.54-433.92 MHz
• 868 MHz (OOK, FSK, GFSK): 868.3-868.94 MHz
• ZigBee 2405-2480MHz
• Wi-Fi (802.11 b/g/n/a/ac) 2400-2483MHz 5150-5350MHz
• Bluetooth Low Energy 2402-2480MHz

[PepsiMac 17]

1 hour ago, PepsiMac said:

"Certification of devices to Z-Wave standards is required as part of the Trademark and Distribution License agreement and every device must pass a series of stringent tests to assure that it is compliant prior to the device being marketed or sold commercially."

 

"All Z-Wave products must be certified before commercial launch. When the certification requirements have been met, products can feature the Z-Wave interoperability logo badges."

 

Mmmm, I wonder what Silicon Labs / Z-Wave Alliance mean by these statements?

[petergebruers 1,265]

On 2/2/2020 at 11:49 PM, nadtom said:

I hope the Xiaomi sensors will be supported by HC3. Do you have any information about it? 

 

Similar question:

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  On 2/8/2020 at 7:36 AM,  

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 said: 

I feel that only few zigbee devices will be recognized in the future by the HC3.

Sure! It is a valid concern, and I wanted to point out, right now, there is no Zigbee support at all, so we are not even talking about compatibility just jet... The HC3 has a Zigbee chip, but at the moment it has no zigbee software. If you want 100% certainty that device X will work that is simply impossible. That will only become clear after Fibaro enables Zigbee. By that time, Zigbee Alliance will already have published new specifications... On the other hand, Aqara door sensor for example are very, very basic devices, probably won't get any protocol updates so probably backwards compatible.

 

They (Fibaro) have never, ever posted a roadmap so I don't think you will get clear answers.

 

If you want me to use my crystal ball: HC3 will first support "Light Link" - because that is the No1 where Zigbee offers plenty of devices and Z-Wave is weak.

 

And if I polish up my crystal ball I can even see "MQTT" support arriving at some point (either natively or because people write Lua code for it, there is already code for HC2 on this forum) so you can always run Zigbee on a cheap SBC and migrate when Zigbee on HC3 is ready. I hear you say... yeah, but when I do that I have an SBC so why still buy HC3? Well, that is something with many pros and cons...

 

As far as I can tell, there are no plans to integrate any of the Xiaomi hubs. I don't know about Ikea hub.

 

And this:

 

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  On 2/7/2020 at 3:00 PM,  

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 said: 

i'd rather see a good hue, Ikea tradfri and plugwise plugin, why? because i like to have the latest updates for my devices.

I agree, if you wanted me to sumrnarize zigbee fw updates in one sentence. But imho zigbee fw update is a complicated story. Like you say, if you wanted me to summarize it, the situation is not much better than with Z-Wave. I mean, some manufacturers release frequent updates (eg Ikea) while others don't (eg xiaomi). Ikea can be upgraded through 3d parties (eg conbee) while recent Hue bulbs have app + phone + bluetooth. So, yeah, to make sure you have latest firmware buying the hub is a safe bet. On the other hand, I quickly moved to zigbee2mqtt to get red of vendor lock in. I do have an Ikea bridge, I keep it... for updates. I don't own Hue bridge, but I have xiaomi zigbee/bt hub. The mi bt devices don't require a hub, the app on your phone can update those devices.

Edited February 9, 2020 by petergebruers

[PepsiMac 17]

19 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

crystal ball

 

Dear @petergebruers,

 

You opinion is much valued. Would it be right to think of the HC3 as a Z-Wave Plus controller (there are not many on the market anyway) with all those advantages ( range etc) and treat Zigbee etc as possible future bonuses? If seen from that viewpoint, that would make sense to justify getting one.

 

For non-technical people, is there a significant learning curve migrating from the HC2 to HC3? 

 

Thanks

[tinman 1,028]

8 hours ago, PepsiMac said:

Please do not explain to me, I prefer to verify my information from a qualified authority, Silicon Labs, the owner, and legally responsible certification authority, for z-wave standards and compliance requirements under various regulatory and consumer protection legislation.

 

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which states:

 

"Certification of devices to Z-Wave standards is required as part of the Trademark and Distribution License agreement and every device must pass a series of stringent tests to assure that it is compliant prior to the device being marketed or sold commercially."

 

The purpose of certification is:

 

"Certification is also a prerequisite for the use of the Z-Wave logo or name. The Z-Wave or Z-Wave Plus logo on a product or package assures consumers, dealers, integrators and service providers that the products will reliably perform with all Z-Wave certified products designed for the same region."

 

As such, it is not the individual manufacturer that decides if a product is displayed on the z-wave alliance as certified but the responsibility of Silicon Labs.

 

No more of the useless discussion as you appear unable to understand what you read.

 

Pepsi, you are not technical person, it does not make any sense to discuss with you, sorry, it is waste of time.

When you wish to know more about certification, read the documenation, not just the "bold line" on the Website.

 

I was involved in some development, testing and preparation for z-wave certifications, so i do know the process and what/when is allowed and what not.

Short said - manuafacturer can postpone public Information about the product - which make sense from Marketing Point of view, you just don't want to other know about you product before i'ts ready for the market. Sometimes product are certified since months, and still not visible (most of companies do this). Sometimes you are middle of the certification, like Fibaro right now, and that's already enough. You can as well product small amount of specific product, and sell it without certification - let' call it pre-production. Sometimes the z-wave alliance simply allow a manufacturer to product / sell Things, even with logo, even if they not yet certified (e.g. Qubino did it for years).

 

However, in generally, when someone is using SDK to develop, and think about sales, it must certify - in one or another way, now or later, all depends on what z-wave alliance decided. When you check exactly z-wave market, you will find tons of products, with logo, but not certified. 

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by tinman

[Bodyart 231]

49 minutes ago, PepsiMac said:

I built my first electronic calculator (Sinclair) in 1927

Interesting @PepsiMac, when i assume, that you were at least 6 years old when you built it, then you must be at least 99 years old!

[10der 832]

Pepsi, IMHO lack of respect by others detected.

more than you always  trying to seeing what you want to see.

[PepsiMac 17]

2 hours ago, Bodyart said:

1927

 

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It was 1972, I was 12 years old and the Sinclair Kit was a weekend project at boarding school. Brown calculator with Red LED display and mainly used to spell "ShEll", "11345" when turned upside down. I tried hacking it to make an LED watch (they used to cost £500) at the time ... never worked reliably because of battery life.

Edited February 9, 2020 by PepsiMac

[Bodyart 231]

Hi @PepsiMac, so your 1927 was just a stupid typo? ?

Edited February 9, 2020 by Bodyart

[Lauri 6]

Pepsi and tinman, please share your thought privately. I hope to see more discussion about hc3 here.

I must say it feels much different(better) than hc2, but there is much to do still. Lua library is quite limited and not all block scene options still work. 

 

Luckily API hasnt changed too much, so i can use comfortclick to be PID controller until i figure out how to do it with hc3. 

 

But i agree with statement, if you have hc2 then dont rush selling it yet. There are things that hc2 can do and hc3 not yet. 

 

[PepsiMac 17]

2 hours ago, 10der said:

Pepsi, IMHO lack of respect by others detected.

 

@10der I shall say no more about that. I have downloaded and run the Z-Range Analyzer, just so brilliant, and am trying to figure how to use your Visualizer to add a graphic dimension to it. I really appreciate what people like you and @Bodyart contribute on this forum. Without these, I would have lots of doorstop controllers and devices.

 

Do you know if there is a way to rebuild whatever SQL database is in the background, or delete phantom devices? Would migrating to the HC3 allow the database to rebuild? My current understanding is that we will have to remove all devices from the HC2 and add them to the HC3. AM I wrong? I hope so because that is really a major job, especially with those in boxes and hard to reach places. Right now, I have to convince myself that I can't remember where I put my big ladder. :).

3 minutes ago, Lauri said:

Pepsi and tinman, please share your thought privately.

 

My apologies @Lauri, I shall not disturb you guys further.

 

4 minutes ago, Lauri said:

There are things that hc2 can do and hc3 not yet.

 

Please do identify what the main ones are? I was already unsure and now more challenged to weigh up what the next move should be.

[petergebruers 1,265]

9 hours ago, PepsiMac said:

and am trying to figure how to use your Visualizer to add a graphic dimension to it.

Please don't use it, or only use it once to have a quick glance at potential issues.  @10der and I discussed "route visualizers" and they produce great pictures but rarely work as a diagnostic tool. In fact they mostly tell lies... Because the data is not what you think ant it is not very good either. Add to that widespread misunderstanding about how Z-Wave mesh routing works...

 

Only Zniffer can diagnose (real) network issues. But those are rare. The top issues are sending too much data to devices (not checking state and repeating commands) - devices reporting to much, possible some nbad device configurations, lingering associations and odd stuff...

 

The major differences between HC2 and HC3 are wider range and faster speed (if the other device supports that speed which is the case for all Z-Wave Plus devices) - so this can improve your network (more devices in direct range, less routing, a bit more bandwidth). But other characteristics of Z-Wave on HC3 are identical to HC2 (little white lie: it has a recent SDK and that is important but it is a long story)

 

So this "Repair And Maintenance Guide" applies to HCL/HC2/HC3

 

9 hours ago, PepsiMac said:

Do you know if there is a way to rebuild whatever SQL database is in the background

On the HC2 is is certainly a sqlite database, not sure about HC3. Not user accessible, HC3 is "hermetic" (even more than HC2 imho) - you'll have to contact support for help.

 

I don't have numbers, but the "flash memory" of the HC3 has (much) better performance than HC2. So probably "database" will be less of an issue. Too soon to tell. Many things feel snappier on HC3 for different reasons.

 

9 hours ago, PepsiMac said:

Would migrating to the HC3 allow the database to rebuild? My current understanding is that we will have to remove all devices from the HC2 and add them to the HC3.

 

Migration (or: lack of migration) is being discussed here:

 

 

[akatar 207]

On 2/8/2020 at 4:41 PM, akatar said:

Perhaps i buy one to see and to test what i can do with all my devices but...

i read somewhere there is limited support for third party zwave devices, is there a list what will work?

 

i have some fakro zwave window openers and aeotec quad wall controllers. will they work??

@A.Socha or someone else, any info regarding my question?

 

[10der 832]

btw, where are you with templates for 3 td party devices? 

[nadtom 8]

On 2/12/2020 at 6:56 PM, 10der said:

btw, where are you with templates for 3 td party devices? 

Would be nice to see a compatibility list of HC3 (e.g. Zigbee devices). 

[wojciechS 5]

W dniu 15.01.2020 o 21:16, PepsiMac napisał:

 

I do not attack or defend Fibaro but just look at the practical issues. For example, for me, significantly reduced power consumption is a big deal and as someone who has two RGBWs that keep disconnecting and are only 10m from the base, this is frustrating. I am careful with Fibaro because I recall the promises made with the HCL (back up power and gsm connectivity) and find it hard to trust Fibaro, without detailed research, on their products. I have also been told that the current CO2 sensor I bought needs to be posted back to Poland as it fails certification and when they receive it, they will send a new one. Who should trust who in this situation, the customer that bought a dud or the company who should want to apologise. When I had a recall of other such product, I was sent the replacement, so my downtime was minimised, and the package contained a pre-printed, post paid envelope to return the defective part. Each CO2 Sensor has its own serial number, why can't Fibaro show that courtesy?

 

 

its true. 

For me - 3 years user - HC3 is not joke, Fibaro Home center 3 is FRAUD!

Somebody in Fibaro made decision about release HC3 without basic function. i'm not saying about Zigbee or 433... think about simple integration with Satel, basic thermostat function, device firmware update - nothink work well... they know about this. These are not mistakes. These are empty functions! They want only visual model for CES but they should be wait for CES 2021... 

FRAUD - nothing more mr. Adam Krużyński

[tcviper 20]

The HC3 is a cool device and is pretty fast, like the new UI, however.... way to many things missing atm:

- Where is Homekit support (built in),

- Zigbee, 433Mhz/Somfy support missing currently,

- Satel integration is buggy, currently no way to simply arm/disarm the device from the mobile app and no way to hide zones not in use,

- iPad app still missing!?

- Hue plugin is the same old as on HC2, needs to be updated to latest SDK from Philips,

- Netatmo is missing completely? Same with Honeywell Lyric support,

- Sonos plugin needs an update

 

Fibaro might want to take a look at Homey from Athom ?

Edited February 17, 2020 by tcviper

[Rovingshoe 0]

On 1/13/2020 at 6:54 PM, PepsiMac said:

And there we have it. I was wondering what the catch was. Sadly, the HC3 delivers old z-wave 500 technology when the 700 platform has so many advantages. Essentially, it seems as if the HC3 is about 3 years too late.

 

The link below details the features of the 700

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and this link is aeotec labs showing a comparison of the two. For €599 for 500, I may wait for a 700 gateway which is future-proofed rather than buy an "already superseded" product.

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Can anyone point me to any company that makes a 700-series gateway today?  I did a lot of web searching but was not able to identify any out there.  I am looking at moving from my Fibaro HCL to one that supports LUA and exploring if the path should be to the HC3 or something other.

[tinman 1,028]

53 minutes ago, Rovingshoe said:

 

Can anyone point me to any company that makes a 700-series gateway today?  I did a lot of web searching but was not able to identify any out there. 

 

Aeotec AutoPilot

 

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it is actually z-way from zwave.me, on Steroids.

Cloud Access sounds very similar to FIBARO, home.aetoec.com or/and id.aeotec.com
The BUI is the one know from zway / popp Gateways, but Aeotec Germany told me "improved", which i definitely believe without tested it yet.
Actually should available "now", probably delayed bit due to Covid-19

Check the Manual to learn more about -> 

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53 minutes ago, Rovingshoe said:

I am looking at moving from my Fibaro HCL to one that supports LUA and exploring if the path should be to the HC3 or something other.

 

i would probably say "take HC3", not because Aeotec Autopilot is bad or so, just because you already know/have FIBARO

[PepsiMac 17]

4 hours ago, Rovingshoe said:

Can anyone point me to any company that makes a 700-series gateway today?  I did a lot of web searching but was not able to identify any out there.  I am looking at moving from my Fibaro HCL to one that supports LUA and exploring if the path should be to the HC3 or something other.

 

I saw an article about z-wave becoming open platform which, I am told, will mean a wider variety of products and lower prices.

 

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If you are not in an urgent hurry, you may want to investigate this further.

[tinman 1,028]

@PepsiMac you mixing things - z-wave product or market certification are completelly different things, and they have nothing do do with CE certification. The Fibaro HC3 is CE certifed and can be sold, even in UK. 

 

Quote

As I learnt my English Linguistics from institutions such as Harrow School, Oxford University and as an officer in the British Army

 

which still didn't means you understood the process of z-wave nor CE certification.