Time for a change?

[robmac 173]

Hi All,

 

Getting to the end of my home renovation and starting to think about an upgrade to my home automation.

 

Big question is do I stick with HC2 or move on to a new controller.

 

Home automation is moving so fast and Fibaro seems to be going in ever decreasing circles with no news about the rumored HC3 or a firm date for user plugins and other vital services. Compliance to data protection does not appear to be high on their priorities either.

 

If anyone has any favorite alternatives please PM me.

 

regards,

 

Robert

 

[giuse 5]

Hi Robmac,

 

I have the same situation and I'm also looking for alternatives. After reading about a few out there I see it now quite clear that Fibaro is going to lose this game if they don't change on the horizontal scale by adapting to the open source agility right now. They (Fibaro) needs the Dev-Ops mentality and/or a lean startup kick-in very quick in the company before the downward spiral is getting to the bottom.

 

Here some of my points that Fibaro needs to turn around now:

 

- IFTTT integration by enabling API interfacing via HTTP's 

- Alexa Skills needs a lot of improvments

- Fibaro App needs a complete redesign as it looks old and static not up to date

- Open up the templating of any Z-Wave devices, a lot of devices are not full integrated as of missing templates. Support by Fibaro on this as promised is very badly going down

- Open interfacing with other Gateways brands or protocols like 433Mhz, Zigbee, etc.

 

I wish that Fibaro could see this as many of us to improve and adapt to customers requirements and not just sleeping on the past old days of success.

 

Ciao,

Giuseppe

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by giuse

[MaTi 29]

I tend to disagree. Being a geek I agree these options would be nice, but do not forget Fibaro strives to be a out-of-the-box solution (if only.. ) for the mass.. And in all honesty, I do believe that is what will increase their market share.. Not all kinds of geek stuff for which there are tons of alternatives on the market already.

[Lambik 192]

@robmac

 

I did a lot of investigation obout this topic. For me I stick for the HC2 (for time being) with disabled Fibaro services and only accessible on LAN or by VPN. Just using it as a supposed to be, a Z-Wave gateway.

 

For communications to other IoT related devices/services I use a Rapsberry Pi with Rode-Ned (see my attachment for more info).

 

The first question you need to ask is what is important to YOU. Then investigate whats suits you the best.

For example:

- Security

The lack of https access to the HC2 is getting absurd. Although I suspect they are working on it (it's mentioned in an update 2.9.1 changelog from ImperiHome).

- Privacy

What and how YOUR data is being used and who has access to it (not a good example, the Google analatics Fibaro implemented some time ago, without the courtesy to announce it in the proper way or lack of a proper opt-out switch). How a trustfull are their intentions and their actions.

- Open- or Closed Source

Well, I don't think I have to explain that anymore. Fibaro is using an Open Source embedded OS and used to a comptely closed source it. That's like using other ones music, add some instruments and sell it as yours. Bit like Apple did with BSD, IMHO.

- How configurable (open) should it be with other plaforms.

- etc. etc.

 

So, if you can give us any info about that, we can maybe give you some goodintended suggestions!

 

@giuse

Hear, Hear!!

 

22 minutes ago, MaTi said:

I tend to disagree. Being a geek I agree these options would be nice, but do not forget Fibaro strives to be a out-of-the-box solution (if only.. ) for the mass.. And in all honesty, I do believe that is what will increase their market share.. Not all kinds of geek stuff for which there are tons of alternatives on the market already.

You're kidding right?

 

If they intended to be an out-of-the-box solution, The HC2 should work as an out-of-the-box device. And secondly they should communicate out of the box, not mumble inside their own box.

 

Take a close look at (some of) their competitors.  Weep and learn...

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lambik

[tinman 1,025]

1 hour ago, giuse said:

- IFTTT integration by enabling API interfacing via HTTP's 

 

what for? when you have device capable to communicate over http, why in the hell you wish to go "outside" and "back" via IFTTT? 

 

1 hour ago, giuse said:

- Alexa Skills needs a lot of improvments

 

custom skill is on the way, when you need more now, take HA bridge

 

1 hour ago, giuse said:

- Fibaro App needs a complete redesign as it looks old and static not up to date

 

so? new background will make the app better?

 

1 hour ago, giuse said:

- Open up the templating of any Z-Wave devices, a lot of devices are not full integrated as of missing templates. Support by Fibaro on this as promised is very badly going down

 

do you have any idea what are templates for? i don't think so. 

 

1 hour ago, giuse said:

- Open interfacing with other Gateways brands or protocols like 433Mhz, Zigbee, etc.

 

as long other brands/gateways have API / http / tcp /udp to contact them, you can implement everything to HC2 via VD. There are only very few cases where plugin is necessary, and even this can be done (you can always develop one, and send it to fibaro to get it implemented officially). Finally you can always use http to everything bridge (pi, arduino, what so ever protocol to http) to get strange things connected.

[Lambik 192]

2 minutes ago, tinman said:

as long other brands/gateways have API / http / tcp /udp to contact them, you can implement everything to HC2 via VD. There are only very few cases where plugin is necessary, and even this can be done (you can always develop one, and send it to fibaro to get it implemented officially). Finally you can always use http to everything bridge (pi, arduino, what so ever protocol to http) to get strange things connected.

 

Exactly, use it as a Z-Wave gateway and for all other things use seperate gateways or solutions. But why is Fibaro advertising in a complete other way? And why is it so expensive then?

[giuse 5]

@tinman

Thank you for your input but I will not start to discuss any of the points with an official distributor of Fibaro. 

[tinman 1,025]

2 minutes ago, Lambik said:

 

Exactly, use it as a Z-Wave gateway and for all other things use seperate gateways or solutions. But why is Fibaro advertising in a complete other way? And why is it so expensive then?

 

once again, because you can do it directly (as mentioned above, via VD or plugin) on the HC2.

 

In your special case was the last part of my answer, if missing or not possible use third part gateway between.

 

15 minutes ago, giuse said:

@tinman

Thank you for your input but I will not start to discuss any of the points with an official distributor of Fibaro. 

 

because of what? your mom told you so? Distributor is not only sales spoc, but as well vice versa support spoc, and believe me or not, we (distributors) can make lot of pressure to get things fixed, we speak for many not for single person, and fibaro as manufacturer is listening (since 2.5 yrs or so) to the market.

[Sankotronic 2,093]

Different people, different habits and different expectations. Since Fibaro HC2 is my first HA system I can't compare it to others.

 

I did have some unfortunate events with it but they are not good enough reason to quit. I like that it uses LUA programming language (HC2) and I hope that Fibaro will just improve that feature and extend it in future by making global variables able to store data tables that are so natural way for LUA language and not being destroyed when Saving in variable panel. Also extending limits that are now forced on length of the VD and scene code. If they do that then this will open possibility to write some really nice and unique AI scripts on their product.

 

So besides some unfortunate events that I manage to correct with restoring backup (I never needed to do complete recovery!) and some bugs that are introduced lately I'm happy how my system grow's and how it works. I like to develop on this platform and I believe that nice HA can be achieved with HC2.

 

Since it is wireless system it will always have some trouble with communication and interference, but I knew that before I buy it so I can't be frustrated with that aspect. Of course it would be nice to have at least some simple diagnostic tool so that it is easier to find culprit when problems start but then again, understanding of wireless technology and how z-wave network functions can help in building network that will give pleasure and satisfaction for long time.

 

What system I have you can easily see from my signature. Almost 100 z-wave devices included with some other controlled via http and tcp, almost 100 VD's and almost 100 scenes and it WORKS! And all that achieved in less that a year of active programming and building. I'm not writing this to brag or boast myself (even I like to do that since I'm born under the Monkey sign in Chinese zodiac  ) but to show that it is possible with this system.

 

So, all of you that plan to quit or already quitted Fibaro either didn't know what you are getting with Fibaro (didn't level your expectations correctly) or you don't know how to build good HA with it. Please don't get angry with me now. just for one example, I was also frustrated that I can't control my Smarter coffee machine with it, but I didn't give up. I found necessary information on internet because there are always people who like to find out how devices work and I used this information to integrate it successfully to my HC2  We have fresh brewed coffee every morning since I learned Angelina how to make it  

 

 

[Lambik 192]

3 hours ago, tinman said:

once again, because you can do it directly (as mentioned above, via VD or plugin) on the HC2.

 

In your special case was the last part of my answer, if missing or not possible use third part gateway between.

HTTPS/SMTP/MQTT/RTSP not available. Why? No one wants, or cares to explain to it's users and users are not giving any prediction if it will be implemented ever. Other then 'soon'....

 

Maybe, just maybe, Fibaro should act like Athom (Homey) as an example. You could discuss hardware/software and so on, but I think they made an good example how it could be done:

- Check there privacy statement and compair this with Fibaro.

- Watch how their communicate with their users and community.

- Check out their roadmap, progress-state and montly newsletter in contrast with the Fibaro none existance one.

- Check their bughandling and communication.

- Watch how they involved their community to make apps (plugins) for them and how approve them.

 

I'm not saying the Homey is better hardware product, but Fibaro could learn some essential lessons there!

 

3 hours ago, tinman said:

because of what? your mom told you so? Distributor is not only sales spoc, but as well vice versa support spoc, and believe me or not, we (distributors) can make lot of pressure to get things fixed, we speak for many not for single person, and fibaro as manufacturer is listening (since 2.5 yrs or so) to the market.

But all do respect, I think @giuse has a point here. @robmac (topic starter) is asking user experiences not salesmen. You're not going to bite the hand which is feeding you.

 

I think it's very strange you say their listening to the market. Can you enlighten us, just hummble paying submissive end-users, where we can beg for this kind of information?

Listen to the market? I thought users are a part of the market. I'm not seeing any behaviour that Fibaro is acting on that.

 

 @Sankotronic  Glad to hear you are satisfied user. Just take a, good intended, warning from my side. You're spending a lot of time and effort to get things done. Now you're learning, exploring and developing. Mark my words, there will be a time where you hit the bounderies and find out you passed, unnoticed, the point of no return.

 

Ask yourself, if Fibaro should stop existing, do you have an alternative backside? Just what I want to say: spread the risks.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lambik

[Sjekke 85]

Following the European law, their manuals should be in the language of the country where they sell their products. Ex. Blind Roller 2 > no Dutch manual.

 

I agree with Sanktronic, we are all humans all with a different taste (cars, houses, holidays, ...). This is a good thing, else the world would be very boring 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Sjekke

[robmac 173]

Wow, I was not intending to cause a fight.

 

Lots of food for thought and strong opinions but from all the posts nobody has found anything particularly better.

 

I bought HC2 almost five years ago and it is not a lot different now than then so that was why I asked. Lots of new products but evidently nothing great yet.

 

Really good points made by all:

 

Have to agree with @Lambik on Fibaro attitude to privacy.

 

@tinman makes a living from this stuff. He possibly knows more about HC2 than some of the Fibaro developers. If there was something better I am sure he would be selling it rather than trying to support Fibaro products as it can not always be easy.

 

@Sankotronic has made a good job of working around the limits of HC2 but as @MaTi point out Fibaro is supposed to work out of the box. It certainly does not for any sizable deployment.

 

and 

 

@giuse you could be correct that their days are numbered but as nobody has offered a better solution in PMs or in the post the end may be a while yet. Certainly feels like they are going around in decreasing circles.

 

Options I have now based on what others have reported the choices are not many:

 

1) Other commercial product but reports are that they are not a lot better yet.

2) Build something based on open source. I could but not really something I want to support or spend my time on.

3) Put up with HC2 scenes and VD until plugins or equivalent are re-released and other features are improved. The issue is that this may take years.

4) Open up HC2 and make some of the changes I want myself. Tempted as it is cheap and leaves my options open.

 

Possibly a stay of execution not because it is a great place to be but the alternatives are not that good yet.

 

cheers for all of your comments,

 

Robert

[Lambik 192]

@robmac Can I ask why you donnot want to spend time on Open Source solutions?

[Sankotronic 2,093]

1 hour ago, Lambik said:

 @Sankotronic  Glad to hear you are satisfied user. Just take a, good intended, warning from my side. You're spending a lot of time and effort to get things done. Now you're learning, exploring and developing. Mark my words, there will be a time where you hit the bounderies and find out you passed, unnoticed, the point of no return.

 

Ask yourself, if Fibaro should stop existing, do you have an alternative backside? Just what I want to say: spread the risks.

 

Dear @Lambik,

 

Thanks for warning me and your words are marked here. But let me explain where I'm standing. For me it is not only important destination but also journey itself. Actually I enjoy my journey and I want to taste and learn everything that it can give me even if I never reach my final destination. If I allow myself to be afraid that my vehicle will not last long enough to get me to my destination I would never taste the pleasure of journey, not to mention collect valuable knowledge.

 

Angelina (our HC2) is giving my family pleasure NOW and her voice is still putting a smile on our faces every time when she reads weather forecast or wishing us good night and nice dreams  If you believe in multidimensional world then I'm at the same time on the journey and at the destination!

 

1 hour ago, robmac said:

Wow, I was not intending to cause a fight.

 

Dear @robmac,

 

I don't see this discussion as a fight. We actually can't fight because our expectations for Fibaro and HA are so much different same as our understanding what HA actually is at the end.

 

In my opinion there is no system in the world that can give you decent HA out of the box except if your expectations are really low and all you need is to have Alexa or remote control to turn on some lights. But there will be when I finish my universal HA system that I'm working on  It will still not satisfy every living soul, but at least it will be a really good starting point for all those people that are not enjoying journey but want to reach destination without effort. I don't blame them, they just enjoy some different journeys.

 

I just don't see why you think that Fibaro is going down the hill, or as @giuse wrote 'the downward spiral is getting to the bottom'. They have two gateways HCL and HC2 and dozen of good products. In year and a half that I'm having good fun and learning of HA with HC2 they put on the market Swipe, Button, KeyFob, CO sensor and upgraded some other products. It is true that development team seems to fall behind hardware development, but that is not only Fibaro's thing, there are many other serious software companies with similar problem, just to mention poor Microsoft and Nokia venture.

 

To be honest Robert, you disappointed me. It took you 5 years to find out that Fibaro is not up to your expectations and isn't now a bit too late to think about another HA system when renovation of your home is at the end? What took you so long? Is it remorse to discard all that investment during never ending journey or you just lost enjoyment?

 

What is really that you expect from wireless HA system? Do you really think that others grass is greener? Is it really only problem that there is still no HC3 on the market, and what is wrong with HC2? Are you afraid that you will fall behind if you build your HA around HC2 and then Fibaro came out with HC3?

 

Do you really think that Fibaro has to follow other companies path and throw at market a new gateway every one or two years? BTW New hardware needs new software that is just impossible to make clean of some nasty bugs in that short time. If you use Apple products then you will know what I mean, because even big Apple can't do it.

 

I think that your empty PM inbox tells you everything  

[robmac 173]

8 hours ago, Lambik said:

@robmac Can I ask why you donnot want to spend time on Open Source solutions?

Simply because HA was supposed to make life more convenient and building my own HA is not more convenient.

Edited August 1, 2017 by robmac

[robmac 173]

@Sankotronic

 

It did not take me five years. Probably less than 12 months. 

 

You do appear to have misunderstood me.  I was asking a question. Is there anything better? A simple request to save myself the cost and time of messing around looking again?

 

At the same time making a valid and intentionaly provocative comment that Fibaro is not moving fast in a market that is moving fast.

 

You can interpret time for a change either way.  You chose.

 

I think Fibaro has the potential to be great but they are trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of success. 

 

If HC3 was here and it had a few of the features I have seen in old betas they would have my money now. Instead I have an aging bit of kit that relies on a USB pen drive to work. They have yet another enthusiast who has become a doubter. 

 

It looks like just now there is not anything massively better unless I build my own. Which would take less effort than you are probably putting in!

 

Add to this security and scant regard for data protection, if I stay it is not because I love the product and that is not a good long term business plan. 

 

Soon I am sure  there will be something better. Unless Fibaro pull up their socks. I will therefore become yet another Fibaro enthusiast that they lose along with all of the future earnings they would have.

 

Thanks all for feedback.

 

Robert

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by robmac

[giuse 5]

16 hours ago, tinman said:

because of what? your mom told you so? Distributor is not only sales spoc, but as well vice versa support spoc, and believe me or not, we (distributors) can make lot of pressure to get things fixed, we speak for many not for single person, and fibaro as manufacturer is listening (since 2.5 yrs or so) to the market.

 

If I would ask my mother she would not know what she wants from a HA but she would enjoy it if it would be simplified to her custom habits and that's why the HC of Fibaro needs to be improved to an open on the horizontal scale with other brands and protocols because Fibaro can never ever cover all kind of hardware or service variation what a user of any kind of level is demanding. Looking on the current market the world is in a big digital transformation where the future will bring manufacturers and consumer much nearer then ever and automation is the key factor of this future. 

 

Distributors or manufactures of automation products should already see this and be ready to adapt quick with the knowledge what the customer will need and demand in the future but if you don't have the vision and no strategy of this business other will do it big. I thought Fibaro could be one of the big player which is not in Silicon Valley born company but more a European innovative company with vision and strategy. Maybe I'm wrong and not getting at all but I bought the Fibaro HC2 with a good feeling and now I'm getting more and more the feeling that its not that what I expected.

 

@tinman

If you are making money with HA I suggest you to read the book "Silicon Germany" by Christoph Keese. It will maybe make you see my view much clearer.

 

@Lambik

Thank you for your responses you have absolutely the right attitude, please don't give up. We should have more Lambik's on this world.

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by giuse

[Lambik 192]

1 hour ago, robmac said:

Simply because HA was supposed to make life more convenient and building my own HA is not more convenient.

I see. Then I don't have any suggestion, other then Athom Homey, because I only investigated Open Source solutions....

 

On the otherhand, if you're not afraid of getting dirty hands, I would recommend a Raspberry Pi to start with. A USB Z-Wave stick can be attached and of you go. The Rasberry Pi is not hard to setup.

- Node-Red is installed as default (Raspian).

- Domoticz can be installed with one command. (setup is easier, has blocky and lua cappabilities)

- Home assistant can be installed with one command. (setup is more complicated, I'm investigating this.) BTW @riemers  thanx for this suggestion!

 

If you are interested, let me know. I have (personal) step-by-step installation notes, which I could share.

 

[Bodyart 229]

2 minutes ago, Lambik said:

f you are interested, let me know. I have (personal) step-by-step installation notes, which I could share.

Hi @Lambik,

 

I'm surely interested in that setup, to study, while my raspi arrives

[AutoFrank 372]

Hi @robmac

I had cause to do a little research a few weeks ago (I couldn't seem to add a new or existing device successfully,  but finally figured out why)

My baseline was a HA System that I could build on (I didn't want to make my own system)

My quick look at the landscape revealed nothing new, in fact I think there is less now than was when I originally looked 26 months ago as some of the smart hub start-ups seem to have died off or been swallowed up by some bigger fish. Homeseer HS3 probably came the closest for me in terms of what I wanted to try and achieve but I'd be taking a chance with no guarantee I wouldn't find myself in the same position in 2 years time. I'm glad that fibaro don't shift product every 2-3 years and If fibaro came out with a HC3 next week I would probably experience a mix of excitement and dread for obvious reasons. 

 

I decided to stay with the HC2 for the following reasons

- I can live with the actual and my perceived limitations of the HC2

- I like to learn, build things and the journey is as important as the destination for me

- I like participating in this forum community

 

On the last point I really like the diversity on this forum. Users have different motivators, wishlists, endpoints, pet peeves, etc and this makes for very interesting discussions like this one

The downside is that I think that all electronic communication is emotionless and no matter how many emoji's you add  , something can still get taken up the wrong way.

 

For me, for now I'm going to stick with my HC2. I'm quite proud of what I have created even if not many people understand or appreciate the complexity 'under the hood'. This morning when I opened our under the stairs cupboard to get my shoes the LED strip came on automatically and I smiled thinking that I created that ....

 

Good luck with your search

_f