Time for a change?

Sankotronic · August 3, 2017

14 minutes ago, jimicr said:

I had to use the swipe down on the lights yesterday, 5 of my fibaro motion sensors where stuck in "eye open mode"..

otherwise I seldom use it.

I remember that I wrote here that I'm against remote controllers and similar "switches", but now we have Swipe, Button, two KeyFob's and two Remotec ZRC-90 Plus I added second momentary switches on all dimmer 2 modules that we use for specific actions.

BTW, yesterday one of Fibaro eye was stuck in breached mode. Replacing battery and waking it up solved problem. This is second time for the same eye in more than year and half.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Sankotronic

jimicr · August 3, 2017

Thanks for your answer @Sankotronic, I had some of the batteries of those replaced over the last month and a half.

I have to add that our HC2 was misbehaving a bit yesterday, first push messages stopped, tried a reboot and after 30 minutes I found out that the zwave was non responsive as a whole.

The next reboot fixed that but then the sensors got breached and and stayed breached. an other reboot fixed 4 and the last one fixed it self after the wake up time. (it was in one of the kids rooms and didn't feel like going in and trying wake only the sensor and not the daughter )

akatar · August 3, 2017

5 hours ago, tinman said:

regards the Fibaro app, wondering only, how many of you are using the icon slide function? e.g. to turn lights in room / all on/off, or e.g. to disarm the alarm?

I don't like the app at all.

I want to create my own screens and i want to decide what i see or don't see.

as far as i know with the iphone app it's all or nothing

I saw the last update with the new looks, it could be my old eyes but what are the changes? i saw a blue background..... i love a black background myself

robmac · August 3, 2017

I am a grumpy old guy and it does come across in how I post.

12 hours ago, Bodyart said:

BTW I stopped painting my hair, when i discovered, that women find gray hair charming...

Your hair looks fine but that skin tone looks a little odd. Possibly try breathing a bit deeper?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well all those posts took a while to look through. Peter understood my question very well.

I have a HC2. It does a lot of things and I rely on it. Almost 150 physical nodes mostly Fibaro. In my wife's eyes it has moved from a toy to an essential. I am starting to worry what happens if this 5 year old thing breaks before I get my upgrade.

Some of you misunderstood my question which was understandable as it was supposed to prompt responses. It is not that I hate my HC2. I had already swept the market when I posted. I was just after confirmation that I had not missed something. Also to try to get some glimmer of hope from Fibaro by getting others to point out the issues we mostly agree HC2 has.

I also hoped to prompt Fibaro to not take too long to come up with a replacement. If they are slow I might need to start my exit now despite the inadequacy of the alternatives but that is my risk to manage. Possibly better to lose functionality now than heating in December.

I know I could build everything I need on open source but I gave up programming 20 years ago. I don't mind the occasional hack or putting a few scripts together but that is very different to managing multiple code lines and bugs in multiple open source libs. I would therefore prefer an easily scriptable commercial platform so here are my HC2 to HC3 wishes :

1) That USB stick : if it breaks my house stops until I rebuild everything. Please not as a dongle on HC3.

2) The backup : well we all know about that one and it can't be the same on HC3.

3) IMO HC2 is neither open enough to be good for a power user (have to do lots of workarounds to achieve what should be simple) or easy enough for a total beginner out of the box. Where are you going with this Fibaro? Head to head with Samsung or a premium niche system for enthusiasts and professionals or both? Not many companies ever manage to hit both targets so you worry me. I hope HC3 will be the latter but at the same time would love to see the big corporate lose.

4) Re-curing bugs: I don't mind the occasional new one but regressing to bugs we have seen many times before is Please no more as they break my life.

5) Locked down but not secure: Fibaro keep us from things they consider a security risk but the security on the platform is not that great. HC3 should be secure but have an advanced open scripting mode.

6) The apps: 150 physical nodes with many multiple devices is a lot of devices. The apps are not that good for me with or without buttons. I know I can create many users but this is for me. I want summary and detail without logging out and in. I have a split personality I do not need split accounts.

7) The development is too slow for a system that has locked down some of the great features that the scripting language provides. We can do great thing but it takes too much effort due to how the platform is restricted and Fibaro you are taking too long to deliver new features and fix bugs. Give us user plugins ASAP.

8) Lack of some very basic things like simple centralized scheduling on HC2 needs fixing in HC3. There are a few libraries on here for this but all that HC2 has is magic scenes that would rapidly become unmanageable on any system with more than a few schedules. BTW @Sankotronic my scheduler is less polished but a lot better...

and most importantly can HC3 be available next week.

Which I think includes some similar to what others have said?

Sankotronic · August 4, 2017

Hi @robmac,

Thank you for finally clarifying your thoughts about Fibaro and your expectations. Now I see that I completely missed your point from beginning. I'm not that bright minded after all and sorry for that.

7 hours ago, robmac said:

BTW @Sankotronic my scheduler is less polished but a lot better...

To be honest I can live with that. After all I know that I still have to learn a lot before I can reach your level of knowledge if I ever do.

robmac · August 4, 2017

@Sankotronic It was fun that you did misunderstand as it made the thread a good read.

I think what you have done proves you know a lot.

All I can say though is I admire your tenacity as HC2 does not make it easy.

All this silly sanboxing of LUA when all that is needed is a secure platform to host an open LUA environment.

Tenacity is not a bad thing but when are you getting your life back to enjoy living in your HA house?

Jamie mccrostie · August 4, 2017

8 hours ago, robmac said:

and most importantly can HC3 be available next week.

Ive got somthing on next week, the week following would be fine.

Sankotronic · August 4, 2017

14 minutes ago, robmac said:

Tenacity is not a bad thing but when are you getting your life back to enjoy living in your HA house?

Dear @robmac, I have answered your question in previous post:

On 8/1/2017 at 0:09 AM, Sankotronic said:

For me it is not only important destination but also journey itself. Actually I enjoy my journey and I want to taste and learn everything that it can give me even if I never reach my final destination. If I allow myself to be afraid that my vehicle will not last long enough to get me to my destination I would never taste the pleasure of journey, not to mention collect valuable knowledge.

Angelina (our HC2) is giving my family pleasure NOW and her voice is still putting a smile on our faces every time when she reads weather forecast or wishing us good night and nice dreams If you believe in multidimensional world then I'm at the same time on the journey and at the destination!

To translate it, I enjoy building HA and enjoy in what I've done until now at the same time.

jimicr · August 4, 2017

26 minutes ago, Sankotronic said:

To translate it, I enjoy building HA and enjoy in what I've done until now at the same time.

Hear hear and all I learned from all you guys!

AutoFrank · August 4, 2017

@robmac

fantastic discussion and thanks for prompting...

I didn't chine in as the couple of things I'd like are well covered about. I'd also like some zwave traffic/node diagnostics or even information but I don't want to open that can of worms here as it has been well covered in another post...

I also think that fact that we are all weighing in and adding to your discussion proves that while the HC2 could be better (like most things) none of us are quite ready to throw it in the bin/trash/garbage just yet

Enjoy the weekend folks, it's an extended one here where I am which makes it better,....

alex88 · August 4, 2017

My favourite posts are Robmac's annual questioning of the future of Fibaro/HC2. What a read!

My 2 cents worth, in this interesting debate and sharing of options, is that we just don't have a better alternative right now. There simply isn't an overall better product out there that is head and shoulders above the HC2. When/if that product comes out, I think we will all know about it and the conversation on this forum will dry up very quickly. Until that day, Fibaro have a captive audience. I for one, and I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum, will not leave Fibaro anytime soon, not until something WAY better comes out. I have too much invested.

@Rob, I am also about to finish my home renovation. My current 180+ physically connected devices across 2x HC2, will grow to well over 200 (maybe mid-200) devices sometime next year. I am also nervous about the future of Fibaro, as it's a lot of money, and more importantly time, to invest if the system is on the path to one day fail, but let's hope that's not the case!

All I can do now is pray that Fibaro:

- First fix the bugs - if the system was rock solid stable a lot of the noise on this forum would stop

- Second deliver on old promises - there is a lot to live up to that we have been waiting a long time for

- Third, work on moving the bar to the next level

Fibaro just don't have the resources to do all three things at the same time and despite some of the conversation on this thread asking for more functionality, for me stability is the single most important aspect. More important than everything else combined - by a country mile. There is so much that can be done with the HC2 already and you just can't keep up with the Jonsese in this world. Too much is changing too fast.

Lambik · August 4, 2017

Just my 2 cents....

IMHO, there is, end will never will be, one system that will be satisfied for all users. A (more) open system, with more communication capabilties and options, is needed to implement a diversity of possibilties to interact with another. It's all about the freedom of choice.

IMHO, Fibaro should focus on a variety of goals:

1 - Stability (rock solid foundation)

2 - Firmware update segregation (alfa, beta, hotfix, stable, LTS)

3 - Security by design (HTTPS login, Protocol encryption, update embedded Debian system)

4 - Privacy selections (opt-out Google Analytics, Privacy options, en- and disabling cloud services, user data insight/delete possibilities)

5 - Roadmap (be clear what is to be expected and what will not, other then 'soon')

6 - User apps/plugins (if approved, add to a Fibaro repository, firmware dependent)

7 - Solid bug report and feedback (status)

8 - Solid snapshot/backup (promote user experimentation)

9 - Documentation (with examples on different user knowledge level)

10 - Bug/error tracking and feedback embedded HC2 screen (HC2 Node connection information/report/debug data, ID cross-reference screen)

11 - Global useable scripts/functions

12 - Extensive user support on forum (So we all get the knowledge to help each other, extensively supported by Fibaro professionals)

13 - Device support (other brands)

14 - Implementation of more protocols to use (SMTP, MQTT, RTSP, HTTPS (VD), SNMP, etc)

15 - Awareness 'one device fits all' isn't future proof

Probably I'm forgetting some crucial things, when writing this....

alex88 · August 5, 2017

1 hour ago, Lambik said:

Just my 2 cents....

IMHO, there is, end will never will be, one system that will be satisfied for all users. A (more) open system, with more communication capabilties and options, is needed to implement a diversity of possibilties to interact with another. It's all about the freedom of choice.

IMHO, Fibaro should focus on a variety of goals:

1 - Stability (rock solid foundation)

2 - Firmware update segregation (alfa, beta, hotfix, stable, LTS)

3 - Security by design (HTTPS login, Protocol encryption, update embedded Debian system)

4 - Privacy selections (opt-out Google Analytics, Privacy options, en- and disabling cloud services, user data insight/delete possibilities)

5 - Roadmap (be clear what is to be expected and what will not, other then 'soon')

6 - User apps/plugins (if approved, add to a Fibaro repository, firmware dependent)

7 - Solid bug report and feedback (status)

8 - Solid snapshot/backup (promote user experimentation)

9 - Documentation (with examples on different user knowledge level)

10 - Bug/error tracking and feedback embedded HC2 screen (HC2 Node connection information/report/debug data, ID cross-reference screen)

11 - Global useable scripts/functions

12 - Extensive user support on forum (So we all get the knowledge to help each other, extensively supported by Fibaro professionals)

13 - Device support (other brands)

14 - Implementation of more protocols to use (SMTP, MQTT, RTSP, HTTPS (VD), SNMP, etc)

15 - Awareness 'one device fits all' isn't future proof

Probably I'm forgetting some crucial things, when writing this....

Nice summary!

robmac · August 5, 2017

Hi @amilanov

I am glad you enjoy them.

7 hours ago, amilanov said:

All I can do now is pray that Fibaro:

- First fix the bugs - if the system was rock solid stable a lot of the noise on this forum would stop

- Second deliver on old promises - there is a lot to live up to that we have been waiting a long time for

- Third, work on moving the bar to the next level

Fibaro just don't have the resources to do all three things at the same time and despite some of the conversation on this thread asking for more functionality, for me stability is the single most important aspect. More important than everything else combined - by a country mile. There is so much that can be done with the HC2 already and you just can't keep up with the Jonsese in this world. Too much is changing too fast.

Fibaro have lots of options.

As you say a secure stable platform first would be a good start but HC2 can never be that. The USB and backup issue alone make this impossible for HC2. It is a fundamental flaw in the design.

And yes I have to agree about the noise here but also they need to get us as advocates not long suffering customers.

I did not mention that when asked for advice by the friend that now has Smartthings about a system, I could not recommend HC2 or HCL. It was not that he only wanted something simple. He would happily have splashed out on a more expensive platform but I could not recommend HC2 as it is buggy, long in the tooth and flawed. I know he will want more than Smartthings offers but he sensibly decided to wait until something better and bug free exists. A potential HC3 customer!

"Fibaro just don't have the resources to do all three things "

Well they certainly do not appear to have but I can not tell. A really good small team can do a lot but certainly concentrating on a few things at a time generally creates better quality regardless of team size. My experience in software is that more people sometimes make quality worse and deliver less. As everyone says a rock solid secure platform is paramount so it would be good if they concentrated their effort on that.

As to delivering on promises and keeping up and innovating, providing a proper add-on/plugin/app framework is possibly a better option than trying to do it all themselves. As you say keeping up with the trends of all the Jones, Lee, Zhang, Wang, Nguyen, Garcia, Gonzalez, Hernandez, Smith, Smirnov or Muller is an impossible task.

Possibly better to let others help by crowd sourcing the innovation on the platform. It is their choice but they are a relatively small company and need to find that slingshot that will allow them to compete at some level with the Goliaths. After all not even the big companies try to do it all. What would an iPhone be without apps?

If they want to try this they could release a "developers only" version of the HC2 firmware. We know they have the code as we have seen it. Give it to registered developers to easily do plugin development and see what gets contributed. Yes this could cause issues with support but they don't have to support a developer's version if that is the terms of using it.

All those bugs in plugins would get fixed in days!!! Yes I hear what @Tinman says but it is slow to develop on the standard firmware. I can do it but the upload and test cycle is relatively slow. I don't mind putting a few plugins together and fixing the ones that don't do what is needed very well.

Any fantastic stuff contributed can then can be considered to become part of HC3.

If they offer a prize for the best plugin they may even accelerate it. Does not have to be big. A motion sensor or bottle of wine?

Robert

Lambik · August 5, 2017

A lot is spoken about a HC3, but is there anything acknowledged or is it pure speculation?

Because if there going to release it around the CES 2018, I definitly wait before buying, learned from Fibaro' s trackrecords the last past years....

Sankotronic · August 5, 2017

I hope then that Fibaro will make it possible that HC2 is easily replaced with HC3 when time comes!

robmac · August 5, 2017

26 minutes ago, Lambik said:

A lot is spoken about a HC3, but is there anything acknowledged or is it pure speculation?

Because if there going to release it around the CES 2018, I definitly wait before buying, learned from Fibaro' s trackrecords the last past years....

HC3 will probably just be HC2 on new hardware without the bad bits of hardware so I might be an early adopter.

The sooner I am not relying on a USB stick the better. I know there is a workaround but it would be a lot of hassle.

Lambik · August 5, 2017

24 minutes ago, robmac said:

HC3 will probably just be HC2 on new hardware without the bad bits of hardware so I might be an early adopter.

The sooner I am not relying on a USB stick the better.

Agreed. But is this (inside) information you have or pure speculation?

robmac · August 5, 2017

Anything I post here is pure speculation. I am just a user with no access to any information.

If/when it comes, if it still uses the same USB dongle mechanism I will not be buying one. A recovery partition is a great idea but not like this.

as to scurrilous and purely speculative rumors ---

HC3 may not be a physical fibaro hardware platform. It may just be the QNAP hardware with software module branded Fibaro.

Please login or register to see this link.

Personally would be happy with that.

robmac · August 5, 2017

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