Home Center 3 is comming ?

[fingusio 12]

Hello

 

I heard some news that new Home Center 3 comming in first quarter 2020.

 

Any other info someone have ?

Edited October 7, 2019 by fingusio

[MJFox 5]

I was sure to buy a HC3, but there's no way I will set up everything again, this would take forever... so unfortunately I'm out and I will keep my HC2 as long as possible and won't buy a HC3

[tinman 1,025]

8 minutes ago, mkiii said:

Totally unprofessional.

 

sure, but this is not something FIBARO can change, as FIBARO is not responsible for z-wave data migration path. 

Feel free to ask Silabs (on their Forum ->

Please login or register to see this link.

) or Z-Wave Alliance to provide tool to migrate Controller Memory from ZW0301 to ZW500 with SDK 6.82.

 

Btw, officially only ZW300 SDK 4..5 can be migrated to ZW500 SDK 6.5x, which is not anymore supported. Since 6.61 the layout has been changed, S2 has been added, so data from 6.82 (the latest SDK from Dec 2019 for ZW500) looks completely different as from SDK 6.5x. The another official way is controller shift, which of course means only z-wave data can be migrated (more or less "directly"), and does need both HCs to be working.

[BrianDS 2]

1 hour ago, mkiii said:

I totally disagree with that - who said that it has to be made on running system - you can stop it an programmatically translate one by one module automatically - also for the scenes - this all is digital and there "old code information" = "new code information" +- something - but this something is not random - you can make an exact translator for that.

 

 

Also comparing this with car parts is not accurate  - beside this that all Fibaro information are digital and can be easily changed do modified - if to compare to a car - it would be rather situation that when you exchange VW to Ferrari you have to additionally get new driving license because new car is controlled totally new way.

 

 

Beside could you imagine situation when with new Windows/Office you can not use anymore all your documents and photos ? Or with new Autocad - you have to draw your last 10 years project once again - not to simply convert them ? Or with new iPhone - you have to take once again all you photos and put manually all contacts ?

 

 

All world works this way that you can reuse all your data that you already have - will you agree if your bank introduce new system and order you to sign all documents and credits once again ? Totally unprofessional.

 

 

100% conversion is not possible - I know - but modules are essential and when there is no phisical change in them to work i new system they must be converted automatically - and should be also at least verifying tool for scenes - if they will work or not.

I have over 200 modules and over 150 scenes – who will pay unscrew all house to get access to them , for delete them and add and for rewrite all scenes created over last 4 years?

It is very common for software not to be backwards compatible, take for instance Microsoft Office 365 OneNote which is not able to open files from OneNote 2016?

 

Filetypes change, interfaces change, and especially if you are hardware dependent it is an issue. 
 

You could also try to run a MS Dos application? Or even older .NET? It might not work today

[Sjekke 85]

 

On 1/15/2020 at 10:08 PM, tinman said:

I love stupid comment, so let me comment all the stupid comments : if you have wheels from your old VW and wish to use them on your new Ferrari, you will not be able to buy any monting kit. If you build one itself, you will be not able to mount it while driving. If you add additional wheels and hydraulic system to switch to the extra wheels while driving, you might get other issues - and all this is dangerous. There we go, this is how easy is migration from HC2 to HC3.

 

If I can buy a Ferrari I really don't give a sh*t about my VW wheels. It are also different brands which is not the case with Fibaro. Btw. Old wheels of an old Golf GTI can perfectly mounted on a new Golf. 

 

8 minutes ago, BrianDS said:

You could also try to run a MS Dos application? Or even older .NET? It might not work today

 

You still can run a DOS application on new hardware ?

[dcspock 17]

1 hour ago, mkiii said:

I totally disagree with that - who said that it has to be made on running system - you can stop it an programmatically translate one by one module automatically - also for the scenes - this all is digital and there "old code information" = "new code information" +- something - but this something is not random - you can make an exact translator for that.

 

 

Also comparing this with car parts is not accurate  - beside this that all Fibaro information are digital and can be easily changed do modified - if to compare to a car - it would be rather situation that when you exchange VW to Ferrari you have to additionally get new driving license because new car is controlled totally new way.

 

 

Beside could you imagine situation when with new Windows/Office you can not use anymore all your documents and photos ? Or with new Autocad - you have to draw your last 10 years project once again - not to simply convert them ? Or with new iPhone - you have to take once again all you photos and put manually all contacts ?

 

 

All world works this way that you can reuse all your data that you already have - will you agree if your bank introduce new system and order you to sign all documents and credits once again ? Totally unprofessional.

 

 

100% conversion is not possible - I know - but modules are essential and when there is no phisical change in them to work i new system they must be converted automatically - and should be also at least verifying tool for scenes - if they will work or not.

I have over 200 modules and over 150 scenes – who will pay unscrew all house to get access to them , for delete them and add and for rewrite all scenes created over last 4 years?

Thanks for writing exactly what I thought... !!

 

I was refraining from answering as I was afraid of being called stupid again... ?

[Thomas Hugger 0]

5 minutes ago, dcspock said:

Danke, dass du genau das geschrieben hast, was ich dachte ... !!

 

Ich habe es unterlassen zu antworten, weil ich Angst hatte, wieder dumm genannt zu werden ... ?

 

Ich schreibe das erste mal in einem Forum sonst lese und informiere mich nur!

Aber jetzt platzt mir die Hutschnur.Beschäftige mich mit der Hausautomation schon seit 5 Jahren. Im Einsatz Home Pilot2, 2 x Gardene ,Ikea ,2 x Hue;,Mi-Home und noch viele W-lan Geräte!

Aber das beste zum Schluß 2 x HC2 und 1 X HCL von Fibaro ca.120 Z-Wave Geräte über zwei Wohnungen und Familien verteilt, soviel ärger und Zeitaufwand mit Fibaro Software Stabilität Reichweite und so weiter.Seit ca. einem Jahr läuft alles ziemlich stabil.

Und jetzt soll ich von vorne anfangen ohne eine Möglichkeit eines upgrades.Wer soll das zeitlich und finanziell verantworten.Fibaro ist also doch ein .... und ich kauf mir jetzt einen Ferrarrriiii toll dann kann ich ja den .... wegschmeißen, wer soll das denn bezahlen!

Zu aller liebe zu Fibaro und Hausautomation das tu ich mir nicht mehr an !!!!!!

Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt! Wenn wenigstens die HC2 aktuell mit software update versorgt werden was aber bei zwei Plattformen so gut wie undenkbar ist.

Schönen Abend bis nimmerwiederlesen..

 

[BrianDS 2]

15 minutes ago, Thomas Hugger said:

 

Ich schreibe das erste mal in einem Forum sonst lese und informiere mich nur!

Aber jetzt platzt mir die Hutschnur.Beschäftige mich mit der Hausautomation schon seit 5 Jahren. Im Einsatz Home Pilot2, 2 x Gardene ,Ikea ,2 x Hue;,Mi-Home und noch viele W-lan Geräte!

Aber das beste zum Schluß 2 x HC2 und 1 X HCL von Fibaro ca.120 Z-Wave Geräte über zwei Wohnungen und Familien verteilt, soviel ärger und Zeitaufwand mit Fibaro Software Stabilität Reichweite und so weiter.Seit ca. einem Jahr läuft alles ziemlich stabil.

Und jetzt soll ich von vorne anfangen ohne eine Möglichkeit eines upgrades.Wer soll das zeitlich und finanziell verantworten.Fibaro ist also doch ein .... und ich kauf mir jetzt einen Ferrarrriiii toll dann kann ich ja den .... wegschmeißen, wer soll das denn bezahlen!

Zu aller liebe zu Fibaro und Hausautomation das tu ich mir nicht mehr an !!!!!!

Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt! Wenn wenigstens die HC2 aktuell mit software update versorgt werden was aber bei zwei Plattformen so gut wie undenkbar ist.

Schönen Abend bis nimmerwiederlesen..

 

I guess no one forces you to upgrade your HC2, if it runs perfectly, then it will probably continue to do so?

[BrianDS 2]

1 hour ago, Sjekke said:

 

 

If I can buy a Ferrari I really don't give a sh*t about my VW wheels. It are also different brands which is not the case with Fibaro. Btw. Old wheels of an old Golf GTI can perfectly mounted on a new Golf. 

 

 

You still can run a DOS application on new hardware ?

That is almost correct ?

Not all generations of Volkswagen Golf will fit the wheels from each other, starting from 4x100 over 5x100 to 5x112 in the present Golf - and also adding bigger wheels and tires, a Golf series 1 13” wheel wouldn’t even fit over the brakes of a modern Golf. 
 

In regards to running MS Dos on modern hardware it will be possible, but your MS Dos applications will most probably not run in Windows 10 - even applications developed for Windows 7 can have huge problems with Windows 8 and 10, and might never get running, unless you cheat with a virtual machine. ?

maybe it will also be possible to run HC2 firmware on HC3, but then you might not gain anything from the new system. 
 

ensuring migration and backwards compatibility would indeed be a nice feature, but if the cost would be less performance or features, or more bugs, it might be worth the effort with the manual migration instead. 
Didn’t someone mention running HC2 as slave? Then migration might not be needed? ?

[jgab 1,977]

5 hours ago, BrianDS said:

That is almost correct ?

Not all generations of Volkswagen Golf will fit the wheels from each other, starting from 4x100 over 5x100 to 5x112 in the present Golf - and also adding bigger wheels and tires, a Golf series 1 13” wheel wouldn’t even fit over the brakes of a modern Golf.

 

I'm a bit lost in the cars and wheels metaphors

 

The hardware of the HC3 is able to support devices the HC2 can't - I have no problem with that. And it would have been a reason for me to upgrade.

However, that doesn't justify the decision to scrap scene/VD backward compatibility, not allowing scenes and VDs from HC2 to run on the HC3.

 

What I seen so far (disclaimer, I'm not a beta tester and I don't own a HC3) are Scenes and VD design decisions that are questionable:

 

- Scenes have a more restricted Lua environment (missing net.HTTPClient, fibaro:sleep, os.time, os.date, clearTimeout, fibaro:getSourceTrigger) and moved from fibaro:* to fibaro.*. Some of this is easy and/or possible to code around but os.time is tricky to live without. Scenes have a new (extended) triggering mechanism that seems to be put in place to support how block scenes are implemented. However, they could have made the choice to implement that triggering mechanism in a HC2 backward compatible model (extension to the old scene headers - or allowed for old style scene headers to be auto converted). They could also have enabled the same set of Lua functions as on the HC2. I would have hoped that they would have supported more of standard Lua - metatables, loadstring, coroutines, libraries, etc - but it went the other way... Either they don't want developer to make scenes for the HC3 or they didn't even reflect and just thought about their own block scene implementation. Someone would have looked at all the scenes submitted to the forum over the years and said - hmm, maybe we should make an effort to make the scenes backward compatible. There are a lot of users that have been with us for many years investing time and effort to script their boxes. They have finally got things working and their spouses have slowly started to admit that home automation could be something. We could save some relationships by allowing them to smoothly upgrade to the HC3 without having to start from scratch. ...and frankly there are no reason why we couldn't?... And maybe we could do an even more powerful Lua environment so we could attract developers to make really cool scenes that would make the HC3 stand out in the competition? AI and other new technologies are around the corner...

 

One could probably write a scene converter but stuff like os.time is tricky, and calling out to a VD to do HTTP calls is awful.

Maybe some of the GEA/smart*/all-in-in-* scenes could transfer over to become VDs (some real coding is needed to understand what is doable - triggers could be an issue) 

 

-What I seen of VDs are another matter. It's kind of back to the old plugin model, allowing VDs to behave like real devices (emitting triggers). Good news is that it has the Lua environment of the old HC2 scenes and runs Lua 5.3. It makes the VD model more powerful and something we asked for. Being backward compatible here would require a bit more thinking but I would have chosen an auto-converting of the old VD format to the new - it's not that difficult and I would assume that people will write such helper code/scenes/VDs... One catch, they would need to support the old HTTP client as net.HTTPClient is asynchronous and that makes auto-conversion cumbersome... Btw, it has always baffled me that if they think that VDs should be used to write adapter to other types of devices, not supported out of the box, why on earth don't they support a more extensive network/io library????

 

A lot of the old Lua framework shines through - and the extension they added are welcomed, but I don't see that it in any way justifies breaking backward compatible - if they cared they could have done it but they chose not do - why? I'm clueless..

One could hope that they would come with an update to the HC3 firmware that would fix some of these issues but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

I believe that fibaro's problem is that they don't make a distinction between users and developer,  they forced users to be developers (cut and paste code to get anything done on the box) and they left developers with a very restricted platform, less interesting than open source alternatives.

For me as a developer (even if I mostly develop for myself), fibaro seems to have become a less interesting application platform with the HC3. It's a pity as I had hoped it would go in the other direction. For users it may over time evolve to become more powerful than the HC2, but I would have betted on getting the help of developers to get me there ...if I were fibaro.

 

So I'm not just lost in metaphors - I'm also a bit lost in what next step to take in my home automation journey...

[mkiii 3]

10 godzin temu, tinman napisał:

 

sure, but this is not something FIBARO can change, as FIBARO is not responsible for z-wave data migration path. 

Feel free to ask Silabs (on their Forum ->

Please login or register to see this link.

) or Z-Wave Alliance to provide tool to migrate Controller Memory from ZW0301 to ZW500 with SDK 6.82.

 

Btw, officially only ZW300 SDK 4..5 can be migrated to ZW500 SDK 6.5x, which is not anymore supported. Since 6.61 the layout has been changed, S2 has been added, so data from 6.82 (the latest SDK from Dec 2019 for ZW500) looks completely different as from SDK 6.5x. The another official way is controller shift, which of course means only z-wave data can be migrated (more or less "directly"), and does need both HCs to be working.

 

Ok but anyway - as long as there is no need to physically change modules only to exclude and include them in new system - new controller should have like "emulation mode" for old system - in which you reopen configuration from HC 2 - and in this mode he automatically one by one make a procedure for every module to exclude them and go on include mode - and reconfigure new connection with HC3 automatically.

 

[master_jo1 9]

Because the migration from HC2 to HC3 is probably not possible:
 Can an option be considered to use the HC3 as a master and the HC2 as a slave, all controllable via one mobile APP, so the old Setup can be still working on HC2 and also maintained and new projects can be started with the HC3?
Maybe this will be a Solution as a Workaround.

 

 

[Sankotronic 2,105]

Hi @jgab ,

 

BRAVO! I totally agree with your post. ?

 

I have invested so much time in developing user friendly UHAS, and was many time thrown back thousand steps by Fibaro experimenting with HC2 firmware always bringing new changes that where either buggy or never properly documented so had to rewrite code again and again.

 

Now with this new HC3 not backward LUA compatible with HC2 I'm back at the drawing board.   Shame on you Fibaro ?

 

I still hope that Fibaro will come to some senses and instead of ripping, finally go ahead with improving coding experience on their boxes. I must say that my hope is very small and fragile since Fibaro obviously more care for users that think having possibility to turn something on/off with mobile device or tell it to do something with Google or Alexa is advanced home automation. So sad and pathetic ?

[Patrick 11]

Fully agree with Sankotronic, and also very disappointing (I would almost say, unprofessional) towards a very loyal user community that had a lot of patience with the Fibaro developing-road map so far . It tells (me) a lot on the maturity level of this company. 

 

Fibaro, think you need to rethink the way forward and make sure you are not going to lose (faith or) your customers on where this brand was build on !

 

Sincerely,

Patrick

Edited January 17, 2020 by Patrick

[petergebruers 1,264]

So many strong opinions on a beta product that has not been released yet

 

This is better than watching television!

 

I am a beta tester and I am not allowed to talk about it.

Edited January 17, 2020 by petergebruers

[jgab 1,977]

1 hour ago, petergebruers said:

Some many strong opinions on a beta product that has not been released yet

 

This is better than watching television!

 

I am a beta tester and I am not allowed to talk about it.

If people find this out first when it's released and they buy it - you will see some really strong opinions

"Hey Honey, I bought an HC3, let me just start the upgrade and we can have dinner..."

But maybe I shouldn't worry - it's just a beta and the real release turns out to be a great platform ...thanks to all the feedback from beta testers  

 

(yes, this is better than watching television ?)

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by jgab

[gucio1234 79]

Well,  I hope Fibar is reading this thread and they will draw conclusions.

[Bodyart 229]

3 minutes ago, gucio1234 said:

Well,  I hope Fibar is reading this thread and they will draw conclusions.

Since @T.Konopka left the forum i don't see admins anymore participating on forum

 

[Testermax 0]

Hi,

Is there a known list of supported zigbee, wifi or 433mHz devices for HC3?

It would be interresting to know which devices it does support.

I fear these radios will stay not used i reality, but they look good on paper.

[Bodyart 229]

2 minutes ago, Testermax said:

known list of supported zigbee, wifi or 433mHz devices for HC3?

There can't be a list yet, while the FW for Zigbee and RF isn't implemented yet in current beta HC3

We will know only after the release and then there still can be unfinished things limiting the usage of Zigbee and or RF, which will be released later (maybe ), as we know from fibaro regarding the other gateways.

[mal 0]

Thanks for the advice on ups ... whilst helping to mitigate the impact of power outages it does not change the fact that the device should restart correctly after a power outage ... I hope that’s addressed with hc3